This is from the NY Times:
Across the country, hundreds of ministers and pastors desperate to reach young congregants have drawn concern and criticism through their use of an unusual recruiting tool: the immersive and violent video game Halo.The latest iteration of the immensely popular space epic, Halo 3, was released nearly two weeks ago by Microsoft and has already passed $300 million in sales.
Those buying it must be 17 years old, given it is rated M for mature audiences. But that has not prevented leaders at churches and youth centers across Protestant denominations, including evangelical churches that have cautioned against violent entertainment, from holding heavily attended Halo nights and stocking their centers with multiple game consoles so dozens of teenagers can flock around big-screen televisions and shoot it out. Continued…
So this is the latest method for getting kids to come to youth group. What do you think? Are violent video games appropriate? Your thoughts.
Hey Sean…This is probably a hot subject. I know a few (Master Chiefs) at WBS who might be all for this. I really don’t know if hosting these events is going to far. I probably would not hold one at my church…personally I had to sell my xbox (to temped to play into the night hours). I guess the big question is with any thing we do is when that thing is gone and nothing is left but Jesus…is He enough?
And would Paul be a Master Chief to all people
. I sure did love playing.
And another thing is are we enabling the xbox junkies in their addiction. No offense to those who are self controlled and know when to put the controller down.
If I buy an xbox 360 and the new Halo, will you come visit? Nah, you can’t keep up with me on that game anyway…
Big Bro,
If you buy a new Xbox 360 and get Halo 3 I might actually consider visiting you when I come up to Ohio next month.
The Master Chief will put in his two cents…
Shooting people in the virtual world is not murder. It is no more dangerous or sinful than two boys pointing cap guns at one another and firing away.
The graphic nature of the game may be a problem for children. But most Jr. High and Sr. High kids that I know have seen much worse from television shows or movies their Mom and Dad watch with them.
One video game being the exception: Grand Theft Auto. Wow. Yeah. Ok.
Video games were something that brought me and Justin (my brother) together like no other activity has. We still have the bond with us (literally 007 Bond); because we still play to this day (except now as Master Chief), when we can. Some play golf, football, baseball, soccer, hunting and the few and the proud play Halo.
It is one of the most fun filled things you can do; especially when on a team. Oh…
As far as using it as an evangelistic tool, I’m not real sure. I think it takes more than some cheap gimmick tool to “evangelize”. Evangelism must happen on a personal level. Maybe Halo could be a beginning point for personal interaction. But I think it should probably be kept to personal settings – like your house for instance.
However, if a church wanted to host a Halo 3 party, I wouldn’t see a problem with that. Where else are they gonna do it? But trying to fit Bible study in between sounds cheesy to me. Use it for what it’s worth and in a different setting talk about deeper issues. You can really be weird trying to be relevant like that; at least I am weird when I do it.
Bottom line: it is as good a tool for evangelism as golf is. No one plays golf and on hole 9 whips out a Bible and starts having a lesson. No, you play golf and invest in the person intentionally and then later in a different setting you talk about life implications and mix the game in at that point. It’s only a bridge into someone’s life.
You do have to meet people where they are.
I have never once lied down after killing hundreds of opponents and felt one ounce of guilt for all that carnage (maybe guilt for staying up too late). Probably because after I kill them they respawn 7 seconds later and I have to start shooting and throwing grenades again. Or maybe I’m just an insensitive mass murderer. Then again, maybe it’s just not that big of a deal.
sorry for being so lengthy. This is a subject close to the heart.
I think Marshall Daigre needs to repent. He is a n00b. It is obvious that he is trying to excuse his sinful behavior.
anonymous you have never played me if you think I’m a noob. its sinful for you to say such a thing.
show yourself.
Lol. I love the interaction on this topic. There’s much that I want to say in response. Marshall, I’m pretty sure I agree with just about everything you have said. You make a great point about how cheesy it can be whipping a Bible study together right in the middle of something that’s meant to be purely a social event. Like during church ball, for instance. It always seemed artificial and forced to ask a bunch of guys to come out and play hard basketball and then do devotions at half time.
On the other hand, since when did entertainment equal evangelism? I mean, people love pointing out that Wesley adapted his methods to reach people, but that involved how he went out to them. To my knowledge, he didn’t ask people to bring outside things into the church. We live in an entertainment-crazed culture. Is having people come in to be entertained really evangelism? Maybe it is. But then again, maybe it isn’t.
But I understand the point, and there does need to come a time when you move from social stuff to the deeper issues.
Generally I am a fan of doing what it takes to reach people in evangelism. (Before some of you jump on my case about my preferences in worship style, please note the distinction I make between worship and evangelism.) I think it’s cool for churches to reach out to people of all ages, whether it’s having a choir come in, or a drama team, or video games. The problem with these things is that usually we promote them and have people come but nothing more. It’s as if the church is just hosting activities for people without a deeper purpose in mind other than generating a crowd. We think that if we force people to listen to a passage from Numbers then we have made a “secular” activity spiritual. However, I don’t know what the answer is or how to do it better. So all I have at this point in an open-ended criticism.
I think the only thing that I might take issue with that you said, Marshall, is that “most Jr. High and Sr. High kids that I know have seen much worse from television shows or movies their Mom and Dad watch with them.” While this is certainly true, it is hardly a good justification for what we have at church. Just because Mom and Dad watch Desperate Housewives with their kids doesn’t mean it’s ok to have a Sex in the City marathon at church. I’m not saying that’s what you said, but it came across as though what people do outside the church justifies what they do inside, and it seems to me that if what they do outside is inappropriate, then were else better than church should the standards be higher/different?
One important qualification in this discussion is what game we’re talking about. Halo 3 was given a 17+ rating for a reason. While certain video games are harmless and can cultivate fellowship (like Wii Sports), others are not. It’s the same as with movies. As a youth leader, I never once watched an R rated movie with my teens. In fact, we avoided all PG13 movies except the kind like Lord of the Rings, and even then we had to exercise caution because LOTR is not suitable for younger kids.
Is Halo 3 itself appropriate for youth groups? Well, I guess that’s the issue we’re discussing here. I’d like to hear other people’s take on the matter?
P.S. Heath made a great point that no one responded to, and that is the issue of people who are “addicted” to video games, i.e. kids who play Xbox for hours a day and never anything else. I don’t care what it is, but if they’re that devoted to something it might be a problem. Should the church be feeding those addictions or helping break them? It seems to me that we need to seek the guidance of the HS to help us know what our people need and what the right thing to do is. After all, the Holy Spirit is who makes “evangelism” evangelical.
What Marshall said…
And also I want to draw a distinction between GTA and Halo.
GTA is framed like the real world of today or the recent past, where there are innocent and guilty people, and you are rewarded for stealing from and killing both, in cold blood, with little consequence. GTA rewards depravity.
Halo is framed in war-time, in a sci-fi world against alien creatures who are trying to kill you. You are a soldier who is fighting for the survival of the human race.
Multiplayer in Halo is slightly different, as you are competing against one another for first place, whether that be on a team or individually, using weapons. However, every person who competes has the understanding that their opponent is voluntarily participating in combat, and when anyone’s character “dies”, they come right back into the game (“respawn”) in a few moments.
Playing a game like Halo is conceptually similar to playing war with G.I. Joes. However, Halo is more immersive. The important thing about facilitating any immersive game, whether you are a parent or church staff, is to ensure the participants can separate the game world from reality. Most people of sufficient age can and do, and Halo makes that distinction fairly obvious since its setting has little in common with reality.
I couldn’t say Halo is unequivocably appropriate or inappropriate for churches, because each congregation is different. Personally, I have no problem with using it to foster fellowship. I have always been a gamer. I probably wouldn’t sit and watch a football game with you, but I would play a video game with you.
[wishing there was an edit button for comments]
In response to the “addiction” angle.
Whether or not the church has an event that enables it, they are going to act out their addiction. At least if they do so at the church the addiction may be seen by God’s people and that person may be shown God’s love and have the opportunity for healing. Again, meeting someone where they are. Otherwise, it seems like we are expecting them to fix their addiction before they come to Christ, which is not what God expects. That’s actually how pagan gods operate, as I was reminded last Sunday.
If you are to the point where you know you have a problem and you have dealt with it, but want to ensure you don’t slip back into it, then you would probably just not participate.
Sounds like you have a lot of Halo 3 fans on your blog, Sean. I can’t personally testify to having played any of the three Halo releases, although I am familiar with 1st person shooter games.
My 2 cents? We do need to be creative in our approach to evangelism today. As a youth pastor I’ve found that what works for one group will not work for other groups. We’re so divided into sub-groups today. You’ve got musicians who want to go to concerts, skaters who want to go to parks, athletes who want to go to games… etc, etc,
Judging from the sales figures Halo does have some mass appeal, though doesn’t it?
I think there is a universal need to “belong” and that is the one evangelistic tool we can leverage. We do need to use caution and discernment about what methods we use to create shared “belonging” experiences. I can’t really say whether or not Halo 3 is an acceptable method or not. I think 15 years ago a lot of Christian parents would be ticked to hear that their church was using a “violent” video game as an outreach to their youth… today parents are simply desperate for their teens to connect to seemingly “good guys” in church… whatever it takes.
Sean,
Yes, I agree with your critique of my own statement and you know what I really meant by it (thanks for seeing that we could all write a book on this).
For me, I wouldn’t really use Halo 3 in specific as a “tool” for evangelism. I tried to make that clear but its worth repeating.
If kids play it already I will play with them (and hopefully help them if addicted or playing with bad attitudes).
Some kids value video games and it is a point of connection to reach out and meet them where they are. I would never tell churches that their youth pastors need to learn to play Halo because it is an effective tool for evangelism; thats ridiculous.
We connect with people in natural ways. It is natural for me to connect with kids and adults who play Halo. It is just one value I share with them.
In the end would Jesus have done it? I don’t really know honestly. But I suppose if a group of sinners were playing and asked him to join along he wouldn’t be opposed just becuase it is a first perosn shoooter game. Unless of course, He saw something that we all are missing (which I am open too, honestly). I don’t think my answer is the end all.
I seriously would stop playing if I thought Jesus told me to do so. I don’t need Halo 3. It is just something fun that I do and something that we do to connect and have a good time. Some go out and drink one night a week or go smoke cigars or golf or whatever. I play Halo. Simple as that.
Everyone needs some kind of down time, I think.
Anyway, not really impressed with Halo 3 as an evangelistic tool. Person to person evangelism is the only way in teh 21st century.
So you are right again Sean in the sense that Halo doesn’t belong in the church but belongs in peoples houses (where it normally is) and we belong in their houses, if we love them.
Our “churches” ought not to be just event-oriented. We need, we must, go to the people of today.
I am learning that daily as a church planter.
By the way, I know who Anonymous is.
Kasey,
Thanks for your input. You have a lot of good thought-provoking things to say. One thing I might disagree with you on is your thoughts on addictions. You said, “Whether or not the church has an event that enables it, they are going to act out their addiction. At least if they do so at the church the addiction may be seen by God’s people and that person may be shown God’s love and have the opportunity for healing.” It appears to me that you’re saying that people are going to remain addicted to something whether the church intervenes or not, so why not let them act out their addiction at church. That might not sound so bad in the context of video games, but what if we applied that logic to everything else? Heaven forbid.
For the record, I’m not suggesting that they have to “clean up” before coming to Jesus. But I am saying that the church should be a place where addictions are broken, not cultivated.
I’m all about reaching people where they are. Wesley was too. He was immersed in a gin-soaked culture, but he didn’t invite drunks over to drink with him.
Kids these days already spend too much time watching TV and playing video games. I love video games myself, but I also know how they can eat up an entire evening. Kids these days are overweight and unhealthy, and their imaginations are rotting because all they do is sit in front of a screen. In many cases it is really unhealthy. Maybe the church isn’t doing kids any favors by perpetuating that behavior??? I’m not trying to be extreme here; just trying to see things from a different perspective.
Your thoughts?
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Doug,
Once again, great thoughts. You do a great job of seeking the via media in these tricky issues. The only thing I would not have said is your last comment “whatever it takes.” Are you seriously prepared to use that phrase literally? Now I know what you really mean when you use that, but it seems many Christians really think that we must do WHATEVER IT TAKES and take it to the extreme. I, for one, cannot go that far. I would have to qualify that and say something to the effect of “whatever it takes without compromise” or something similar.
Sorry for being so technical and for splitting hairs. My training makes me this way.
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Marshall,
Your humility humbles me. It makes me both miss you at the seminary and thank God that He has you where you are.
You make a great point that most people do all sorts of depraved things. If playing a video game like Halo is the worst you do, then I guess you could be doing a lot worse.
Yes, we all need downtime. Me? I play a quick round of Tetris on my rickity old Gameboy at night before going to sleep.
I think the best thing you, or anyone else, has said in this conversation was, “…Halo doesn’t belong in the church but belongs in peoples houses (where it normally is) and we belong in their houses, if we love them.” Exactly.
And I would love to know who Anonymous is, but only if I know the person. Otherwise, I’ll let you tease them.
(Seriously though, don’t expose them on here. I don’t want to discourage future anonymous posters.)
Sean,
I will see if Anonymous wants to post something else. If he doesn’t in a few days I might tell. I may call him first.
MLD
Sean,
By the way, your Truth Dialogue blog has now had some good dialogue. Keep up the good work. I don’t know if you know but I have used some of your stuff on my blog.
Another, by the way, Kasey is a guy up here in Alabama (long time friend) who is going to help us start the new church.
And one more by the way. Dr. Ury has been in revival here at my Dad’s church this week. Good stuff.
Blessings brother.
Marshall,
Thanks to you guys, this blog has been living up to its name this week. You, Kasay, Doug, and anyone else interested in pursuing truth are more than welcome around these parts. I don’t care about pageloads. I care about dialogue.
I visit your blog too, Marshall, and so I am aware of your usage of some things on here. Feel free to use whatever you want. I have also added your blog to my blogroll. In case you haven’t noticed, I’m pretty stingy with who I link to. So, pat yourself on the back. your monthly pageloads just grew by 4!
Oh yeah, Dr. Ury is amazing. I can’t wait for him to get back down here so that I can show off my two newest books to him: Partakers of the Divine Nature: The History and Development of Deification in the Christian Traditions, and Communion and Otherness, the sequel to Being as Communion.
Oops, I meant Kasey. My bad.
Sean said: “Oh yeah, Dr. Ury is amazing. I can’t wait for him to get back down here so that I can show off my two newest books to him: Partakers of the Divine Nature: The History and Development of Deification in the Christian Traditions, and Communion and Otherness, the sequel to Being as Communion.”
Speaking of new books. Have you picked up Coppedges new book The God who is Triune and Collins new book The Theology of John Wesley: Holy Love and the Shape of Grace. Both are really great books. If I read the praface to Coppedge’s book correctly it is the first in a new series…part of a “theological project”. Those involved — Kinlaw, Coppedge, Oswalt, Ury, Cockreill, Bounds, Smith and etc. africa1
concerning addictions: at the risk of sounding silly, trite, or wholly inappropriate, i would simply note that there are other addictions with which people struggle, such as gluttony (in its various forms) – just to mention one that comes to mind. again putting myself at risk, how often to churches have potlucks, cookouts, and so forth? [when i was in high school, my youth group would go to an all-you-can-eat pizza joint (cici's - disgusting, in my opinion) after church. occassionally - though probably more often than i would like to remember - we would compete, seeing who could eat the most.]
Just for clarification, Sean. When I wrote:
“I think 15 years ago a lot of Christian parents would be ticked to hear that their church was using a “violent” video game as an outreach to their youth… today parents are simply desperate for their teens to connect to seemingly “good guys” in church… whatever it takes.”
I meant it as a commentary on where the church is today. I don’t think we’re in a “good” place… I think we’re in a dangerous place. “Whatever it takes”… is a poor point to begin ministry from, in my opinion too.
Great discussion here. I’m going to bump you up from “Good blogs that update infrequently” to “Good blogs that update frequently” Sean!!!
Heath,
Yes, I’m aware of the Coppedge book, but lack the funds to acquire it. Let me know how it is.
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Adam,
I see your angle, but I’m not sure I see a 1-to-1 correlation between potlucks and Halo nights. There is no better context for fostering social relationships than mealtimes. Food is a bodily necessity and a common connection point for all human beings. Halo is a violent (used loosely) video game with a 17+ age rating. I’m not trying to be stubborn, argue with you, or make a point other than the fact that I don’t see a direct correlation.
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Doug,
WHOA! I’m moving up in the world, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for the ‘bump’ as well as your clarification. (BTW, most times I know what you mean or where you’re coming from. I ask antagonistic questions in order to stimulate thinking and discussion as well as to tease out your own thoughts.)
Great discussion, guys. Any further thoughts?