What Does the Methodist Movement Have to Offer?
Recently, I was talking with a colleague who has done some significant work in Methodist-Holiness Movement, or the Wesleyan-Methodists Movement as most call it. While discussing some significant theological points, I was reminded again how the Wesleyan-Methodist Movement is not considered, in the evangelical and theological world, as academic. Why? Most evangelical theologians practically disregard John Wesley and his theology. Then as we continued to talk about the history of the Wesleyan-Methodist Movement it hit me again...Phoebe Palmer and her "Alter Theology". Every time I think about the Methodist Movement in the 19th century my stomach gets tight and sick. Phoebe Palmer did not teach Wesley's theology. She stressed the instantaneous over the progressive work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life for sanctification. She also made entire sanctification out to be such a vital point in her dogmatic Christianity that justification was subordinated to a mere moment of enlightenment. Her theology seems to run very close to the heretic Pelagius, thus we (Wesleyan-Methodists) are often called Pelagian by Calvinists.Reaching back to true Wesleyan doctrine, what do we have to offer in the theological realm? I have a list of items that I think are unique, biblical, theological, and spiritual, but I want others to start this dialogue. What does the Methodist Movement have to offer?
16 Comments:
Back in the days of the ME Church we were taught that two precepts goverened the church.
The open mind and the purity of the spirit. ( If 45 years of memory serves )Local interpretation of the rules has ruined the church for many of us.
we are discussing in organizing the Last Methodist Church and not affiliate with the United methodists.
Susan
Ron:
Mentioned to a few profs over a meal the other day that "an alumnus" had recently put Phoebe Palmer and Pelagius into the same sentence.
They (ahem!) disagreed.
For whatever it is worth, I think Tom Oden at Drew would vehemently disagree. So would many of the professorial types down this way.
Nice site. Post more often.
Matt Friedeman,
I'm glad to know something I said has stirred the waters down there, although I didn't qualify what I meant with such a strong statement of Palmer and Pelagius.
In the heat of the moment I was drawing a connection between the logical conclusion of Phoebe Palmer's theology and how closely that logical conclusion runs to Pelagianism. Let me qualify.
The way entire sanctification, and salvation for that matter, was taught to me in the holiness realm that I grew-up in, was that "if you want it, come and get it". Where did this theology come from? Phoebe Palmer. Palmer's stress on the individual expereince of instantaneous sanctification was brought about by the individual taking a step toward the altar and giving to God everything. As you well know, Pelagius taught that man takes the first step toward salvation (contrasted to God's previenant grace). This is a pagan concept. How is it that, I a sinner, can go and get anything from God?
I truly don't believe that Mrs. Palmer was Pelagian, but there are preachers and teachers who have taken her theology to an extreme version that leads to Pelagianism. We have many students here (where I teach) who have been taught that salvation and sanctification is a formula of going to the altar and getting it. They later find their life in shambles and no longer believe a person can be entirely sanctified. This has been a big struggle for me as a teacher. I find myself explaining the entire sanctification to students who are tired of hearing it. They don't believe it and have a wrong concept.
You maybe saying that your denomination has never preached this or taught this extreme view of "altar theology", but it is taught...I and others came to seminary with this concept. Go to some old holiness campmeetings and poll people. Ask them how how a person can be entirely sanctified. I have had students (in my long one year career) who claim that they have been to the altar several times and they are still struggling with issues (which I call sin). When asked "why do you go to the altar?" They answer, "That's where we can 'get' sanctified."
Come on. How can you say that these concepts are not "very close" as I stated in the article?
Dear Prof Atkins,
I suggest you consider enrolling in
one of Wesleys online courses,me thinks
you need a tune up.
Thinking in MS.
Ron:
Well, "stirred the waters" might be a bit of hyperbole. Three of us winced for a short moment. :)
You said, "Come on. How can you say that these concepts are not 'very close' as I stated in the article?"
Because, my dear Ron, I don't consider blogging "In the heat of the moment." Crisis points are not evil or Pelagian. Most Christians have them, albeit not always at strategically placed wood at the front of a sanctuary.
And, btw, I am truly sorry for the damage holiness campmeetings have done to you and others. Pity.
Yours!
Matt
evangelismtoday.blogspot.com
Ron, Ron, Ron,
My how fall we have fallen. Just kidding! Actually, I would like to commend you for your connection of Palmer with Pelaguis. Now, while I wouldn't put her in the camp of full blown Pelagianism, I would definitly put her in the camp of a semi-Pelagianism. As you know, this put her at the other end of the spectrum of which Wesley was at - a semi-Augustinian (believing that anyone could be save, but not when they chose to - it must be initiated by God).
Unfortunetly I don't have much time for this post, but I would like to offer the following as contibutions that Wesleyanism has to offer:
1. Full salvation and regeneration
2. Entire Sanctification and
purifcation
3. Assurance of both
4. Freedom
5. Victory
6. Perfect love
I wish I had more time to flesh these out, but I have to run.
TG
Prof. Friedeman, my that picture looks
like it needs updating!
What Ron has failed to mention to all of you is that he is a closet "Pheobeite."
His shelves in his office are littered with her books! In fact, he was seen referencing them just yesterday.
Matt Friedeman,
I understand why you and your colleages winced. You have yet to understand the connection. I am not speaking about a "crisis moment". The crisis moment is Biblical and is Wesleyan. I never made the connection between the crisis moment and Pelagianism. Again, here is what I said the connection was that I felt was "very close" (read the whole quote): "Palmer's stress on the individual expereince of instantaneous sanctification was brought about by the individual taking a step toward the altar and giving to God everything. As you well know, Pelagius taught that man takes the first step toward salvation (contrasted to God's previenant grace). This is a pagan concept. How is it that, I a sinner, can go and get anything from God?"
You have put words in my mouth when you said, "Crisis points are not evil or Pelagian. Most Christians have them, albeit not always at strategically placed wood at the front of a sanctuary."
I guess the problem falls into my lap when I assumed others understood the issue of whether grace comes before (semi-Augustianism) salvation/sanctification or whether it is man who takes the first step toward God for salvation/sanctification. Maybe I should ask you the question to see if we are on the same page or saying something different: "Do you believe that the Holy Spirit impresses on a person first (before the expereience of salvation or sanctification), or do you believe that a person makes a decision to seek God first?" This is the crux of the issue. Once we determine this, I think we can move on to further examine the article.
Ron,
I can connect with your some of your frustrations regarding "alter theology". I grew up hearing countless sermons calling the congregation to come forward and be sanctified, but I heard very few sermons on how to live out the sanctified life. The crisis of sanctification was preached exclusively, while the process of sanctification was rarely mentioned. I recently talked to an old-school holiness evangelist who blasted modern holiness folks who preach process rather than crisis.
I'm not sure the crisis focused alter theology is necessarily and intrinsically Palagian. Some may have developed Palagian ideas from Palmer's movement, but it seems to me that many uninformed Christians from a variety of theological backgrounds end up believing Palagian fallacies. Maybe it has something to do with our American mentality that leads us to believe that we are free and have rights (rights even for God's grace).
I have found myself at times wanting to distance myself from Palmer. Larry Wood's book "The Meaning of Pentecost in Early Methodism" has helped me some. The book helps connect John Fletcher, the American holiness movement, and later Pentecostalism to John Wesley's theology, not as a misconstruing of Wesley's theology, but as a continuation of his theology.
Thank you Tristan. I want to reiterate again that I never called Palmer a Pelagian (although I wanted people to think and see if they could come up with some connection). I purposely said that they are "very close" and I qualified it in my resoponse to Dr. Friedeman by saying that today we are living out the logical conclusion of altar theology. That conclusion is Pelagian. To stress that salvation begins by me doing something first and then God responding because He cannont do otherwise is Pelagian. She (Palmer) didn't say this, but her theology taken to its extreme ends here at a Pelagain concept.
I would like to get back to the original question and see if anyone has any opinions: What does the Methodist Movement have to offer the world?
Ron,
One of the reasons that Wesley has never received the acclaim of a Calvin, Luther or even Edwards for that matter is that he never came out with something that resembled a systematic Theology. You and I know that it seems at times no two "Wesleyan" scholars agree. Theologian scour his works and journals and develop a "wesleyan" systematic theology. Here is the funny thing, Wesley was never really concerned with being published to sum it all up Wesley states it best, "Nothing to do but to save souls." Wesley's primary motive in all he did was evangelism.
The beauty of what Wesley offered was a practical theology. A theology that the common folk could embrace, and that could equip the laity for service. Wesley's genius was in his organizational and mobilization skills. His ability to train lay preachers, and to insert converts into Bands, Societies and Class meetings was the heartbeat of the methodist movement. It was in these setting that true holiness was taught and practiced!
Yes, Jake. I think that is important to note. Wesley's theology is a "Pastoral Theology". John Wesley was a smart, educated person, but his passion was the unsaved. He was in the trenches of spiritual warfare. It is one thing to articulate a good theology, but it is another to live one out. Wesley put the practice in theology.
To return to the purpose of the post, What does the Weslyan movement have to offer?
Our world is becoming more community oriented in the way it understands truth and ethics.
We have built into our very DNA an understanding of God's desire and empowerment to love Him and our nieghbor.
Truth claims are seen as grabs for power. We live out lives of surrender and sacrifice.
Our world is interested in how to dialogue between religions. Previent grace opens that possibility by recongizing the Spirit's work in a non-Christian's life.
These are a few of my thoughts. I think our biggest strength is our confidence in God's grace to transform us. Our world is less interested in proving what is true, but seeing it lived out. They wonder "Does it work?" We can say and demonstrate "Yes!"
Here hoping to revive an abandoned post. Chuck
Ron thanks for the Post. I see what you are saying about Palmer. From what little I know about Wesley there were not many after his death that stayed true to his practical theology. Herbert McGonigle makes the point in his book, Sufficient Saving Grace that William Pope was one of few true Wesleyan theologians after his death and rates him the best "of all Wesleyan Theologians, before or since". Yet, we see little of his quotes in theology text. Wiley quotes him without reserve in his 3 vols.
To your question “What does the Methodist Movement have to offer? Sometimes I wonder if we truly know the answer to your question. I am a Nazarene; if you ask a hundred of us -- say our view on sanctification, you would most likely get 60 + different answers. This is why one GS said we are in an identity crisis. It might be Palmer, Fletcher, Clarke or something else, but not Wesley. That’s why I am glad people like Outler pointed out that Wesley was a theologian and people like Maddox have committed themselves to a recovery of true Wesleyan theology and to look to him as mentor and build on his theology. I think we have a whole movement that is confused to what Wesley really believed because for so long so much has been ascribed to his name.
I hope as Wesleyans we can offer the world this: “a present deliverance from sin, a restoration of the soul to its primitive health, its original purity; a recovery of the divine nature; the renewal of our souls after the image of God in righteousness and true holiness, in justice, mercy, and truth. This implies all holy and heavenly tempers, and by consequence all holiness of conversation.” -- John Wesley
“This is the religion we long to see established in the world, a religion of love and joy and peace, having its seat in the heart, in the inmost soul, but ever showing itself by its fruits, continually springing forth, not only in all innocence... but likewise in every kind of beneficence, in spreading virtue and happiness all around it.” –John Wesley
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